Female Sexual Arousal Disorder – A new medical myth?
These are purely the beginnings of research and ponderings that I have been working on and are by no way complete – I am continuing to learn and expand upon findings. As my training and back ground is all health related I do spend a fair bit of time keeping up to date with all things health related – in particular women’s health.
Recently I have been delving deeper into the medicalization of women’s health. This new area “FSAD” which has been gleefully seized upon is beginning to look as though it may be better described as “disease mongering” purely to expand markets for new products for the pharmaceutical companies.
Robert Wilson’s book started this ball rolling back in 1966 with his book “Feminine Forever” where he effectively persuaded the world that the menopause was in fact a “disease” and not a normal female stage of life, In fact the cover boasted. “Every woman no matter what her age can live a full-sexed life for her entire life” Sorry I shit you not!
Of course, forty years later long tern hormone replacement therapy has been exposed as causing more harm than good.Now enter the next profitable women’s “disease” yes – FSAD. A collection of researchers and drug companies are working to develop and define this new category of female “disease” which of course leads to the race to find new drugs that they can pump women full of – until we conform to men’s ideal interpretation of womanhood.
It is known that FSAD is a complex problem that can have many different causes. It may be caused by physical illness but more often than not it is linked to psychological factors.
Physical reasons will include diabetes high blood pressure, infections, reactions to contraceptive devices and so forth.
Psychological factors can be the result of poor self-esteem, sexual abuse or incest, depression, or anxiety including medication for the management of psychological conditions.
Hormonal and emotional changes during pregnancy and breast-feeding may also be a contributory factor.
Moreover, these are compounded by the historical emphasis – nay insistence on hetro normative sex. Where penis in vaginal is the real sex and where foreplay is not viewed as sex but as a build up to the real sex – i.e. penis in vagina.
Some researchers have described the concept of FSAD as questionable as it does not fully take into account relational and cultural factors. It fails to encompass contemporary understandings of women’s sexuality and responses. Moreover, disease mongering includes deviating ordinary complaints into medical problems, perceiving mild symptoms as harmful, treating subjective problems as medical and framing incidence estimates to maximise potential markets.
The figure being quoted for women experiencing Sexual Dysfunction is 43%
“However, serious questions hang over the 43% figure, obtained when University of Chicago sociology professor Ed Laumann and colleagues reanalysed a slice of data from a 1992 survey. About 1500 women were asked to answer yes or no to whether they had experienced any of seven problems, for two months or more, during the previous year, including a lack of desire for sex, anxiety about sexual performance, and difficulties with lubrication. If the women answered yes to just one of the seven questions, they were included in a group characterised as having sexual dysfunction”
To round up here – for the time being, as I will write more about the proposed drugs as I wade through mountains of articles and research. The scientific basis for the existence of this “disease” is controversial as is the suitability of treating the disease with wait for it —-a testosterone patch! Also of course, the “female Viagra” of which both are heralded as a “cure” for Female Sexual Arousal disorder.
I feel that women are at risk of being exploited, as there is increasing pressure for women to perform by standards set by male interpretation of female sexuality.Of course, there is hardly anything new in this – women have experienced exploitation for profit making for centuries and may I add with great success
Another name for FSAD: My Husband/Boyfriend is an Asshole.
My ‘lack of interest’ in het sex was purely down to the pornified, dull, selfish gits with the dangly bits.
Esp when they expected you to play out the porn scripts, the one that got me was ‘big boy’ when the damn thing was so tiny. My imagination really isn’t THAT great.
I liked sex to much to continue having bad sex. Better no sex than bad sex.
nonsense – you’ll be saying next hysteria isn’t an actual disturbance of the womb.
just a load of hysterical women getting in a hot flush, i reckon.
stormy – all good stuff until the unfortunate typo at the very end of your post. ‘better bad sex than no sex’, surely…
(big boy..ahhahahahahahaha – surely we men don’t actually think our genitalia look sensible or attractive????)(maybe that’s just me)
The name of that disease sounds like a dichotomy- I’m not sure if women are disordered for wanting too much sex or not enough? Surely it can’t be the men demanding too much or not being in the mood when we are! We need more women in science to start questioning the starting points that men are privileged and lazy enough to take for granted.
(Of course I know there’s more to it, but throughout history female sexuality was, and is still somewhat, viewed as something to be fixed from the starting point of male sexuality. I have yet to see women’s sexuality seen as something independent and individual. Simone De Beauvoir said it better than me though. Le plus ca change…)
That attitude is something I deeply resent on a more personal level. It’s annoying when you can’t ever be “right” for others. It’s funny but I’ve only told a handful of people I’m asexual- the response has always, always been focussed on a) “you need fixing and are beyond weird” and b) “That’s fine. But only as long as you get over it and marry one day.” which is essentially a). I don’t bother mentioning it any more. Which just got me in trouble today because this friend asked me out and he was so shy (actually stuttering!) that I said “yes” because I took pity. This isn’t the first time I’ve done that- obviously a personal flaw in “being too nice”.
It’s also interesting that women seem to only really be seen in their worth as cash cows. Women’s emancipation in the UK was because of their economic aide to the country and I suspect that women are encouraged into jobs because it makes them stronger consumers, or alternatively aren’t because they provide valuable unpaid labour.
Conscious discrimination is there, but not everyday in my opinion. It is mainly formed of privilege fuelled by ignorance and greed.
Everyone is somewhat sexist/racist/(insert -ist of choice). the question is how you respond to that.
Some people try to change the world.
Others push drugs.
(Yikes! I’ve just written a largely off-topic essay! Mea culpa sparkles!)
Sparkle the myth of female sexual dysfunction arose because the pharmaceutical industries saw an opportunity of making huge amounts of money by medicalising women’s sexualities. Viagra supposedly cures male sexual dysfunctioning but in reality it does not, instead it causes far more problems because of the narrow definition of what supposedly comprises ‘real heterosex.’ I’ve written previously about the increasing medicalisation and pathologisation of women’s sexualities and even had a paper published in an academic journal about this issue.
Sparkle are you aware of the website http://www.fsd-alert.org A group of feminist academics all working in the field of sexualities became increasing concerned at the medicalisation and pathologisation of women’s sexualities. So they all joined forces in order to combat the power pharmaceutical industries whose sole purpose is to make huge profits. They set up a website and it makes very interesting reading whilst at the same time debunking many myths including the belief that real sex only starts when the wonderful penis enters the vulva.
Quite agree Sparkle, the claims that hormone replacement therapy would ‘help’ women with menopausal symptons turned out to do far more damage than good. As with menstruation and childbirth, menopause has increasingly been defined as a medical condition in need of control and medication. Yet again women’s bodies are being exploited by male-centered and male-defined ideas of what comprises a supposedly healthy normal woman. It is the one-size fits all complex. Wilson was also the man who termed menopausal women as being dried up and useless – I’m paraphrasing here but he certainly believed post-menopausal women bodily shrivelled up and became useless. I also recommend Anne Fausto-Sterling’s work on how the socio-biological and evolutionary model defines women as deficient and lacking compared to men! See also Jane Ussher’s work on the ‘monstrous Feminine.’ Now you’ve got me started Sparkle on the subject of medicalising and pathologising women’s and girls’ bodies. Sexualities as you know is a complex subject and in Leonore Tiefer’s words ’sex is not a natural act.’ Tiefer is one of the driving forces challenging the myth of female sexual dysfunction.
Newt – that was not off topic at all – thank you. By using the personal and other refrences you have highlighted exactly what this post was designed to say “questioning the starting points” of our sexuality.
Jennifer – Yes I have just been directed to fsd a couple of days ago. Also thank you for the suggested reading and don’t set me off on menstruation and childbirth! From both the personal and the professional in this case
Jennifer – is this your paper?
http://www.thefword.org.uk/features/2003/04/dysfunctional
_moi_the_myth_of_female_sexual_dysfunction_and_its_medicalisation
Yes, I have read it – and I suggest anyone else reading this to do like wise.
Excellent
I had to break the link up for size problems.
Oh god,
This is so scary. Our culture would rather classify nearly half of women as mad than admit there is a cultural flaw with the perception of womanhood. Or consider that our culture may turn women off. Make them feel uncomfortable.
I labelled myself sexually disfunctional for about a year, hating myself for my low sex drive. Dismissing my arguments against porn because maybe I just didn’t understand having a high sex drive. Now I am better and realise I was suffering from the after effects of a sexual assault. Our culture that breeds this is mad. Not me. My sex drive, when untroubled by the patriarchy is, frankly, huge, and my arguments remain strong.
That our culture is so in the grips of blind patrairchy and really shallow solutions to problems that go to no lengths to understand causes of problems as to seek to chemically alter nearly half of women than address a cultural problem…
Well I’m lost in the structure of that sentence, but:
DAMN PATRIARCHY
and
DAMN CAPITALIST FORCES THAT WOULD RATHER MAKE MONEY THAN LOOK AT WHAT IS HAPPENING.
Sorry, calm down, Euny.
Hey Euny – its fine, I am also furious – I am pig dog sick of all of this.
Yunno – I love the bit about the “testosterone patches” Hmm capitalist patriarchs (read medi/pharmi here) are so narcissistic and hell bent on monetary gain from female biology – that they want to *treat* us with their hormones—go figure.
I can see the ad campaign: Christopher Plummer singing ‘why can’t a woman be more like a man?’
VO: now she can, with new Sexylaydee Testosterone patches! from the people who brought you the products you didn’t even know you didn’t need.
But that would mean that men are all homosexual – ohmigod, don’t tell the church.
Female Sexual Arousal Disorder – this has obviously been “discovered” by the type of man who, when he has sex with a woman, expects her response to go according to a formula. They expect a woman’s sexual response to be detached from her emotional core, stimulated only by the sight of a cock and being able to measure her response in a reductionist way, pointing out specific and predictable responses and particular timeframes in which to respond to particular stimuli. It is defining a woman’s sexual repsonse by the porn-defined male expectation, and by the way a man’s sexual response usually happens.
This is the sort of thing men (and women) get from porn. I have been with men who do this, who think that a woman’s sexual build up and release is just like man’s, with a predictable start,middle, and big explosion end – they are so far off the mark it’s almost funny. some men are now even expecting female ejaculation (I have heard of this, but am not sure that it’s even true, and even if some women “squirt” -sorry to be so blunt- very few can, but men hear about these things and expect all women to be able to “do” them at will,like a performing dog)! Oh, and don’t forget the “when harry met sally” gasping sound effects to prove he has “given you” the best orgasm you’ve ever had, just to prove to himself that he’s the ultimate mista luvva luvva.
So, now that we have all of this fuck-bot expectation of women being shown to all via the saturation of porn into culture,many women are thinking they are not “performing” enough or well enough, but increasingly, many may just say “no thanks” to all the pressure, thereby “proving” to the drug-pushers that women need a drug, little realising that this would only be propping up an arificially created situation perpetuated by men’s definition of a woman’s sexuality.
the wonderful penis enters the vulva.
Jennifer, the vagina is the internal tube of muscle where a penis can be inserted, whereas the vulva is the name for the external femal genitalia. Which one do you mean to refer to here ? You use the same phrase (insert in vulva) in your f-word article as well.
Breastfeeding stops women wanting sex??? Bring out the bottles! We can’t have the menz deprived of their god-given right can we? Put that screaming baby down and bend over!
That f-word article is really good.
It just reminded me of when I was younger and in my first sexual relationship (with a man). He was lying on his back with his hands behind his head whilst I was giving him oral pleasure (obviously an acceptable and standard practice) and I suddenly got the urge to stop and give myself some pleasure by straddling his knee (his leg was bent you see). I was quite near to coming when he said, “what the hell are you doing?” He was horrified with me “using” his knee in such a manner! Well, that killed the moment and I’ve never done it since. Which is a shame because it was very nice.
By the way, sorry if that was too much information.
‘ultimate mista luvva luvva’ – this is in fact the title of the most-played cd in my collection!
helloooooooh (pace leslie philips)
‘Put that screaming baby down and bend over!’ – i’m sure more reasonable men (like what i am) would never insist that you put the baby down – feminism has made strides, you see.
jo22 – sexual objectification of our knees now! where will the sexbotisation of men end?
Cue bloke in pub with mates (and stomach) as good-looking woman (for which read ‘woman’) walks past:
‘whurr i know what she needs: a good bony knee hur hur ‘ ….hmm no it doesn’t quite sound right somehow.
Re knee rubbing – the hairier the better! Jo, don’t be put off by one man’s reaction – I know men who actually have initiated the leg/knee friction action, they know that it can be enjoyable if you want it – -there is one where you are both lying on your sides facing each other, up comes man’s leg against your “lady area” lol and the friction commences!!
sw – it’s always a bloke in a pub innit?
No No – Stop talking about s*e*x please remember that
%43 of us experience arousal issues so great that we need viagra and testosterone patches.
Hi, Sparkle and realuk, the article in the Fword was a first draft of what then turned out to be an academic paper. I was invited to submit a paper on this subject, which I did and it was subsequently published. Heigh ho, sometimes I make mistakes – I meant vagina because of course penetration alone is ‘real sex’ anything else is preliminary! Thank you for pointing out my mistake – that was missed by editor of academic journal too. There has been immense controversy over what supposedly comprises ‘real female sexual expression.’ Hence clitoral stimulation is perceived as preliminary to the real one which is penis in vagina and of course immediately after penetration a woman is sexually satisified. Note too that vaginism is another supposed disease which affects many women since after all if a heterosexual woman can’t or won’t allow a penis to enter her body she is suffering from vaginism! (I think I’ve mispelled this word never mind). Since clitoral stimulation does not involve penetration then it is not necessary for a penis to be involved and of course that means female sexuality is independent of male sexuality. Horrors – that can’t be true because we are still being told it is not so. Lest anyone think I am being ‘radical’ I believe female sexuality has been and continues to be policed and controlled withinn a one dimensional viewpoint – male-centered and male-defined. Reality is, female sexualities are pluralistic since no two women’s sexual preferences and sexual pleasures are identical. Claims that unless women can xyz within two minutes are there for a purpose, to make all women think they are dysfunctional if they do not react or act as porn myths claim. Some women do experience ejaculation, but again this does NOT MEAN ALL women must and should ejaculate. Back to belief female sexuality is a one size fits all again.
Likewise women who are asexual are not dysfunctional or frigid – another myth used in order to ensure that women must always be sexually available for men’s usage. In 19th century it was widely believed middle-class women were all asexual, working class women were just sexual degenerates. Now of course sexual culture has changed so that sex has become the be all and end all. Any woman who is not sexually active and also sexual within a rigidly defined sexual script is deemed to be suffering from sexual dysfunction. Never mind testosterone patches will sort those ‘frigid women out!’
Hey Sparkle, now that Daisy Puke has confirmed I am not that weird (I think) I have a suggestion. How about creating a blog where we can talk about sexual acts we enjoy/have enjoyed, that don’t fit into the typical moulds. And perhaps also things that make us feel uncomfortable to see if other people find the same things uncomfortable. Sort of like a consciousness-raising thing. Sex doesn’t get discussed much in feminist circles without turning into the great blow-job debate.
Hey Joe good idea
and no I don’t think you are weird either, having had carnal knowledge of a few knees myself. Would this be a private or a public blog? if the latter me thinks it may have the higest *lurk* rate ever 
Yes Jennifer – how did sex get to be just all about the penis?
To pretty much repeat what lots of other people said – what gets me is the idea that “lack of desire for sex” is a condition inherently needing treatment.
(Sure, it can be an effect of other illnesses (e.g. depression) but you solve that by treating the causative illness, not by targeting the frankly least harmful “symptom”.)
Anyhoo… jo22’s sexual consciousness raising blog sounds ace. More than ace.
I had a similar idea recently for a blog to share and/or create powerful woman-centred sex fantasies, as an alternative to getting our kicks our of mainstream/male sexual culture. I even had a cool idea for a name: CuntlovingFantasyLand.
No idea how to do it so that it would be troll-safe and still allow contributers to remain anonymous though, and I thought the anonymity option was important.
Does anyone know how to do this?
You can have it password protected. Otherwise yes, it will just become another link on the plethora of “10 year old gagging for it” and the like searches that show up in your blog hits.
I’d join, but only under password restriction.
Maia
So-called sexual dysfunction can be *caused* by antidepressants and other medications. If a woman has problems with libido, lubrication, vaginal elasticity or pelvic floor prolapse, she should look to her medications (among other considerations) particularly, as noted, antidepressants and hormone therapy, “natural” or prescription.
Yes, you would have to be careful with a blog like that – even a password-protected one – as we all know, the pervs have their lightning speed network and they soon sniff out anything that they think might get them off – if there’s a barrier to it, even more of a challenge – it would be hacked pretty quickly I think. Not a good idea, as they would twist it to their needs (how unusual).
sw – it’s always a bloke in a pub innit?
always! – that’s where ‘blokes’ hang out (much like their stomachs). i have taken the liberty of non-identifying (does that exist?) as such a ‘bloke’ but am probably just as bad – tho not hanging out in the stomach area – i’d be thrilled if a woman loved my knee – or toe or elbow (actually really like the elbow as erogenous zone) – i am a praise junkie and desperate for affirmation.
if you do have the anonymous sexual fantasy site, can i handle selling the advertising space? to nice companies only, obviously.
i trust we all realise this is the FSAD thread… nuff said
Sparkle and everyone because sexuality and especially female sexualities is not very often discussed, this is precisely why I mentioned clitoral stimulation. Sparkle as to why the wonderful, all-powerful and of course dominant mighty penis defines sex (note vibrators are now increasingly penis shaped!!) has a rather interesting history. Suffice to say, historian Tim Hitchcock wrote a book entitled English Sexualities wherein he provided evidence that penetrative heterosex was not considered the only ‘real sexual act.’ Many women and men engaged in non-penetrative activities for various reasons: not being married and therefore not wanting to risk the chance of an unwanted pregnancy or even horrors – lack of interest. However, from the late 18th century onwards with the rise of science which gradually replaced religion as the arbiter of reason and morals, plus other factors including industrial revolution which gradually changed both working women’s and men’s lives, so perceptions of sex changed. There are other factors too, but I’d end up writing an essay on this fascinating subject. More importantly, from the late 19th century with the rise of sexology all of which was male-dominated, the emphasis was on sex as being only penetration. Concern was increasingly expressed about women’s lack of sexual interest and frigidity. Havelock Ellis an early sexologist and one who in my view held misognystic views on female sexuality, since he considered women to be innately masochistic sexually, purported the idea that female sexuality unlike male sexuality, was difficult to arouse, mysterious and of course always only responsive never initiating. Sexuality increasingly became medicalised and of course male-dominated science entered the scene. Interestingly at the same time first wave feminism began and some feminists were challenging the sexual double standard. This in turn, led some feminists to begin to challenge how sex was defined. Then, of course we had the rise of various advice books and claims that women in general were frigid and in need of being taught how to respond sexually to their husbands. Does this sound familiar? Problem was female sexuality – male sexuality was straightforward of course! The term heterosex was not invented or used until some time during the 19th century same with homosexuality that term too was not in use until the late 19th century. As for lesbianism – well it just didn’t exist. Of course some women or even many women had same-sex desires, but since lesbianism was not even defined, women who did experience same-sex desires were not perceived to be lesbian. And of course given women’s lack of economic power, only a small group of financially independent women were able to live with another woman which might or might not have been a sexual situation. Social mores were such that it was inconceivable for two women to actually live together and have sexual contact.
It was also during the 19th century that a number of young women were forced and I say forced because there is evidence this happened – to undergo clitoral removal. Cannot remember precise term – but many medical men believed girls who stimulated themselves via the clitoris were not only immoral but also the clitoris was totally irrelevant with regards to what was considered normal sex. (Read heterosexism). This was what we now call female genital mutilation.
Also, I found it fascinating to discover that prior to the rise of sexology and science in the 19th century, female sexuality was generally perceived as being more lascivious, more easily aroused, more uncontrollable than male sexuality! Therefore, because women were considered to be more sexual than men, then it was women who needed to be socially controlled and policed. Men were perceived as being the ones who were ’seduced’ by women’s sexual wiles. Any of this sound familiar? The common factor as always is that female sexuality has always supposedly needed to be controlled and restrained. One important factor of course is that since only women can reproduce it was until recently essential that men know whether they were the father of any children or not, since children especially male children inherited the father’s property etc.
I strongly believe that female sexuality is still very much a hidden subject and yes if a safe way could be found wherein women could safely discuss such sexual matters then I am most interested. However, as already stated, there are many trolls around and doubtless there would be spies infiltrating such a network in order to gain voyeuristic pleasure and of course sexual gratification. I do know that some feminist women in the 60’s and 70’s did engage in what was then called conscious raising wherein they did discuss female sexualities. Still, for me the good news is that I know there are a number of feminist writers and academics who still challenge the narrow cultural definitions of what supposedly comprises ‘full sex.’ I always wonder – how can one have ‘half sex’ then? I also know many women do believe that what purports to be sex education is in fact sexist with its emphasis on reproduction, penetration, male sexuality as a hydraulic system and of course the absolute no no of even daring to mention, let alone discuss the fact that young teenage women like teenage boys do experience sexual desires and sexual arousal. But of course this then leads to young women being defined as ’slags or sluts’ if they were to even acknowledge their own sexual autonomy and agency. Meaning societal control of young women’s sexuality is such that even experiencing autonomous sexual desire is seen as immoral. That is why claims women are now sexually empowered is a lie, because in fact women are still being told to adhere to male-centered ideas of heterosex and male sexual satisfaction is primary. Women’s sexual satisfaction comes a long way down the list. So, if a secure and safe way could be found – then count me in. It is only by women discussing amongst themselves issues on sexualities can we then discover that in fact if a woman does not desire or like certain sexual activities she is not frigid, a prude or represssed etc. That female sexuality is not a one-size fits all women and equally important scientific claims that since x number of women reach orgasm easily or within certain minutes then that proves those women are sexually normal! As an aside – has anyone noticed how male on female anal penetrative sex is now increasingly becoming defined as ‘natural and normal?’ Another instance of how sexuality is primarily socially constructed and how male sexual satisfaction is paramount.
Thank you Jennifer that was very helpful – I have done a lot of study on the witch trials of early modern history (lots of posts here in the archives), much of what you speak i.e. that women were uncontrollable, and insatiable sexual predators plays a huge part in the persecution of the “witches” If a Priest for example became sexually aroused by a woman then she was often accused of witchery – as she had ‘made’ him respond to her sexually. Nothing much has changed really has it? With ref to male on female anal sex, I was reading an article the other day that suggested that aside from the increased physical tension – on a psychological basis it demonstrates a denial of the uniqueness of having a vagina – which the writer saw as a denial of the uniqueness of the female. Anyway, lots to think about in all of this – Mmm got much reading to do!
“Problem was female sexuality – male sexuality was straightforward of course!”
That’s a can of worms right there!
“how did sex get to be just all about the penis?”
[Stormy rustling through papers, digs out faded memo, with "From the Desk of The Patriarchy" on header] *Sparkle, Sparkle!, here, look at this!*
“male sexuality as a hydraulic system”
Apt description!
This is an extremely important topic. It’s great that you’re writing about it, Sparklematrix. We women must take back our sexuality from the Patriarchy. There is so much lies and and withheld information.
When I entered puberty, I believed that all women instantly orgasmed if they were penetreted vaginally. (Hmm where could I have gotten this idea from??) I couldn’t understand what was wrong with me (who “only” got orgasms from clitorical stimulation.) I continued to believe that something was wrong with me until a year ago (I’m in my 20’s) , when I read a report on how most women DON’T get orgasm from vaginal penetration only. We need more information – feminist information!
(This Jo also thinks that kneehumping is great.)
“how did sex get to be just all about the penis?” err and the knee
“male sexuality as a hydraulic system”
I picked up on that straight away too stormy- I actually “lol-ed” when I read that!
So, to summarise, if men think that women are “too sexed”, they try to control it and dampen it (scuse the expression) down and, if they are not sexed enough, they aren’t happy with that either? Either way, it’s a male call isn’t it? And either way, women cannot win. These days it seems that the “problem” for men is that women are not aroused nearly enough – wonder why that could be?
Side note – Discussing sex with other women in a safe place would also mean (in my opinion) talking frankly about sexual practices they don’t like in particular, but which they feel they must “perform” in case their partner decides to go elsewhere for it, sexual practices which they feel pressured into “performing” due to the influence of our old friend mista porny. Anal anyone? No thanks, just cuz it’s a hole doesn’t mean I want a penis stuck in it – no entry into the out door!
But I would not contribute to such a site because I would feel that it would not be long before the pervs discovered it, and I aint giving them any more stuff to jerk off to than they already have, which let’s face it, would take them several lifetimes to use up at least!
Stop whining SW, you have a f’king knee (or two) as well don’t cha? sheesh
“hydraulics”, yeah, it gave me the LOLs (in a ‘brill’ way Jenn!)
Prof, yeah (nice new term btw; mista porny). Think you are on the money with perform acts (‘perform’ very apt) that they are not into in order that the menz don’t go elsewhere. Some even put up with their bf’s porn so he won’t ‘run away’. I say, let ‘em run away, jerk ain’t worth it. You are only kidding yourself, and sooner or later his entitlement for all women to be at his sexual beck and call will become evident (or his underlying misogyny, whatever).
“Some even put up with their bf’s porn so he won’t ‘run away’”
Putting up with the porn, and then going along with doing what he has seen in porn – these 2 things go hand in hand – porn is sexual and emotional blackmail for women and “going with it” does not work – it only makes him want more of it, with other “partners”.
And walking away from wankers like this well, I don’t think there are many men who do not use porn any longer so it’s probably best to avoid men altoghether – the logical conclusion to this is (hopefully), that porn will create the very thing it’s trying to avoid – women saying no to sex with men! We can only dream! But can you see the logic of that progression?
The word “hydraulics” conjurs up the horrible mental image of those rape machines used in porn, that have mentioned in recent-ish feminist-blog history.
Somebody get me a litre bottle of voddie to swallow these here happy pills with – shit, you’re either having to get off-face to deal with “going with” the misogyny, or to deal with fighting against it! Believe me I know.
Jo you said there needs to be more feminist information, so here are four books which some women might find interesting. By the way, research has proved time and again that majority of women do not orgasm from vaginal penetration! Now I’ll await patriarchal claims that such research is a nonsense. Most women climax from clitoral stimulation, however that does not mean ALL WOMEN DO. I am not trying to replace one narrow biological viewpoint with another. Rather individual women’s sexual pleasures are not identical. Women’s Sexuality Across The Life Span by Judith C. Daniluk is a good place to start since it provides clear information on how girls are socialised into what is supposedly the only normal heterosexist definition of female sexualities. Then there is The Clitoral Truth by Rebecca Chalker, another good book. A New View of women’s Sexual Problems edited by Ellyn Kaschak and Leonore Tiefer is another good book. This one includes analysis of how fsd came about. Leonore Tiefer has also written Sex Is Not A Natural Act. Gina Ogden’s book ‘Women Who Love Sex’ is an excellent book because Ogden is not only a feminist sexologist but also in her book she describes research she has carried out with numerous women of differing ages, ethnicities etc. and who have all discovered that sex is not just penetration but is more diffuse. No, it is not pornographic and none of the above books sexually exploit women in any way. They are all easy to read since I too hate any book which is so academic I can’t understand it. Hopefully some of these books will be in libraries (I can only hope) or they might be available second hand via Amazon, or other web-based booksellers.
there is Leonore Tiefer’s Sex Is Not a Natural Act. There are other books but all these are easy to read and most importantly are not couched in language which is difficult to understand. Oh yes, now a book I highly recommend is Gina Ogden’s book: Women Who Love Sex. No, it is not pornographic but instead Ogden who is a feminist sex researcher, describes in her book interviews she has conducted with numerous women of differing ages, ethnicities etc. and who affirm that sexuality is not just penetration. None of the above books are pornographic or exploit female sexualities. Hopefully some might be available in libraries (but perhaps they will be seen as porn!) or even available second hand on Amazon or other web-based booksellers.
Sparkle, yes I too have studied the persecution of women in respect of claims they were ‘witches.’ All about control of women who did not conform to societal ideas. Hydraulics – well that is an apt term which I have taken from Tiefer’s description of how male sexuality is viewed. The penis goes up and down – hence hydraulics. Fix the hydraulics as viagra supposedly does and everything then is in working order!! No need to even consider psychological or social conditioning etc. instead sex is presumed to be a biological entity in its own right, which is why Tiefer says ’sex is not a natural act.’
Apologies for incoherent comment. Thought I had edited but obviously didn’t!! There and I thought I was perfect!
I’ve been reading these posts with much interest, having been referred here by a listserve of New View proponents (fsd_alert.org) and I’m loving the energy, but I have to admit, as a sex therapist (psychosexual therapist it’s called in the UK, I think) it pains me to hear that so many women are still struggling with the idea that “clitorality” is inferior to “vaginism”–not to mention, also dealing with so many sexually clueless male partners!
In my field, and in the counseling field as a whole, we have been writing about, speaking publicly about, screaming our heads off on the internet about female sexuality as the starting point, the key paradigm for heterosex, and it feels like we’ve been doing it for so long that we’ve probably deluded ourselves that the idea has been integrated in the mainstream more completely than it actually has. Dozens upon dozens of books written for the layperson focus on female sexualilty from that perspective. My own book, Fearless Sex, certainly is one of them, and so is Gina Ogden’s newest book, The Heart and Soul of Sex — as are nearly all of those I have come across in the self-help category written by sexuality experts. (see: http://www.aasect.org/books.asp) Once you shift out of the medical world and rummage around among popular publications, the idea that women’s sexual desires, responses and styles are secondary to men’s is revealed for the myth that it is, even if not stated directly in those terms as Gina and I often do. Plus, we know that the continuum of sexual desire (and desires) is so vast as to make a word like “normal” pretty obsolete in describing any aspect of sexuality. So the fact that this seeming deluge of words does not filter down to the public as a groundswell of educational support is a source of untold frustration and pain for us. Why is the message still getting lost? Maybe because the cultural foundation built by anti-female, anti-femsex, anti-diversity forces is so solid, so thick and encrusted with century upon century of lies, that to yell the truth one hundred thousand times is like whispering it just once. What promted me to post here is really the wish to say something to the women who are holding themselves back or reticent to make their own sexual fulfilment paramount: I want to urge them to start screaming, too. We have every right to speak out, yell out — and anybody (i.e.., any partner) who states or implies otherwise is simply revealing their ignorance. So when Mr. Bony Knee says, “what do you think you’re doing” or “you want me to do WHAT?” don’t back down, just calmly explain the birds and the bees, the clits and the knees. It’s unfortunate that we always have to be the teachers, but another sad old myth is that men are equipped by either knowledge, instinct or rights to lead in the sexual encounter. The fairy tale of the all-knowing male seducer, the “ultimate mista luvaa luvaa” (love that phrase!) is busted; his day is ohvaa! The best lovers are the ones willing to let us teach them how to please us in our own idiosyncratically perfect way. (The rest can learn where the door is.) And if we move on to somebody else, we’ll have to teach the next one all over again, and our last partner will likely have to be taught anew by his current partner. And so it goes. Obviously, the overarching changes that need to be made exist deep within our cultures and won’t be made overnight or even in the next decade. But if we women trust deep in our guts that who we are as sexual beings and what we want is OK, then, at least in our own little personal universe, it may seem for a few hours at a time that we live in a better, more conscious and embracing world. And I’ve found that we often need that extra fortification to get out there and take our message again and again into the resistant–or downright oppressive–world-at-large.
Hello Joy and welcome – thank you for taking time to respond from the fsd list serve. It has helped confirm that many of us do not merely imagine our experiences – they are indeed recognised and that they continue to remain static and held firmly in place by a “cultural foundation built by anti-female, anti-femsex, anti-diversity forces” However I draw some hope that you feel – in fact we may have deluded ourselves in regards to just how deeply integrated this is – I hope so.
Also, thank you for you reading suggestions – judging by the other recommended books on this thread – we have our work cut out!
Moreover let’s hope Mr Luvva Luvva is finally laid to rest. For what its worth he (they) are certainly busted from my life!
‘let’s hope Mr Luvva Luvva is finally laid to rest’
Fnarr Fnarrr, ms saunders
Thank you too Joy for writing. Yes I know Tamsin Wilton for one has written a book on the embedded essentalist ideas concerning what supposedly comprises real heterosexuality and sex.
But as you so rightly wrote it is so embedded in our society. Also, we must not forget the power of the media or rather who has the power to decide what is printed
and what is omitted. Scotsman on Sunday has been promoting the ‘latest sex survey’ which is due to be published tomorrow. I have no doubt this will too will contain myths concerning female sexualities and will once again reinforce women’ supposed lack of sexual desires etc. etc. However, I also know a number of women of varying ages who have or are working their way out of the myths they were instilled into as young girls and teenage women.
I’ve realised it is only by actually talking and challenging dominant ideas that many women will realise they are not abnormal or dysfunctional – that their sexual feelings or desires are not abnormal because of course how does one construct ‘normal.’ Enough said.
Joy – I liked this bit “We have every right to speak out, yell out — and anybody (i.e.., any partner) who states or implies otherwise is simply revealing their ignorance.”
But this bit seriously perturbed me – “…we know that the continuum of sexual desire (and desires) is so vast as to make a word like “normal” pretty obsolete in describing any aspect of sexuality.”
Any aspect of sexuality? Paedophilia?
Sorry. Just need to clarify where you’re coming from.
“…just calmly explain the birds and the bees, the clits and the knees. It’s unfortunate that we always have to be the teachers, but another sad old myth is that men are equipped by either knowledge, instinct or rights to lead in the sexual encounter.”
Again, why do women always have to be the ones to explain and justify everything?
Men think that porn is the true essence of female sexuality and use it as a manual “step one – press this button, step two, if she responds like such and such, do this, if not don’t do that” – if men had their way, there woud be an olympics for sexual prowess.
And the trouble is, nowadays women are conditioned into thinking that men’s definition of their sexuality is theirs too – this is a sick situation, underpinned by porn and it’s mainstreaming.
Men need to de-myth themselves – yes we keep screaming it but they won’t listen.
And yes, where do you draw the line at obliterating the word “normal” from sexuality?
To Joy – it is because of female “cousellors” such as yourself, spouting off about the joys of porn, that women are more screwed up than ever. Porn destroys lives, is the cause of a lot of pain and unhappiness for women, and for you to betray women and sell them down the river is unbelievable. But after all, porn is a billion dollar industry, and I suppose you have decided that “if you can’t beat em, join em” and you could have a nice slice of that pie.
Ah I see, playboy radio Joy?? You are definitely having a piece of that billion dollar pie. Traitor.
Dare anyone ask if it’s BECAUSE of porn that women’s sexual repsonse might be affected? Might it be that this is a normal reaction to the misogyny of porn? Might it just be that there might be an option for women to *gasp*…. NOT be pressured into being silcone-inflated, pole-dancing, semen receptacles for men? Gold star for the right answer!
Prof Fifi said: “Again, why do women always have to be the ones to explain and justify everything?”
Thanks Prof. That was one of the things that really irked me too.
Just to say the books I recommended are all ones which treat female sexuality with respect. None of them advocate the belief that ‘anything goes’ as long as it is supposedly consensual. One book in particular analyses the various ways in which girls and women are socialised into accepting as normal unequal power relations between the genders. Whilst stating that female sexual desires are diverse I do not endorse the view that sexual domination and control over another human being – primarily male domination over female, is normal and acceptable. As always many books on sexualities have a hidden agenda, wherein belief in domination and control is promoted as normal. Jenny Kitzinger wrote an excellent article a few years ago highlighting the subtleties of such books which whilst supposedly proclaiming female sexual autonomy in fact were still promoting that old myth – female sexual submissiveness and subservience to men.
“As always many books on sexualities have a hidden agenda….”
Yes Jennifer, that agenda is porn basically.
I was not having a go at you btw – it was trying to make a point to someone else who is probably reading.
Stormy, (tips hat) my pleasure, don’t mention it!
Prof Fifi said: “Again, why do women always have to be the ones to explain and justify everything?”
We shouldn’t ever have to justify. But explaining the facts to a sex partner, and being direct about what we like and how to please us, makes sense with someone we think well of. It’s certainly part of developing intimacy whether a partner is male or female. However, I totally get how irritating it is to think of explaining how women’s bodies work to yet another man who hasn’t taken it upon himself to absorb the basics from real educational sources–not porn. Deciding whether someone is worth the effort to “enlighten” is always a very personal judgment call.
As for normalcy: I was directly addressing the discussion of clitoral vs. vaginal stimulation and related aspects of female pleasure. Yet, it’s true that this context can be expanded, because women are as erotically different as we are simlar in other ways, too. I think some posters were making reference to bdsm and erotic role play as it intersects with cultural power imbalances–a subject that continues to be dissected in both feminist and sexological circles, with many feminists taking a pro-bdsm (or a “not anti-bdsm”) stance. However, no matter where one falls on the spectrum of opinion, at least the issue of power and gender is examined point-blank in deeper discussions of bdsm, rather than remaining an insidious secret agenda. For those interested, an excellent new book that addresses the subject is Peggy Kleinplatz and Charles Moser’s, “Sadomasochism.”
First, I want to thank jennifer drew for your book recommendations.
Second, I wish people would stop bringing up sadomasochism. Urgh.
the birds and the bees, the clits and the knees – so if i rub this bird on a bee…voila!
why do women always have to be the ones to explain and justify everything? – cos the men aren’t going to do it (apart from a bit of self-justification)…and that’s a good thing.
among popular publications, the idea that women’s sexual desires, responses and styles are secondary to men’s is revealed for the myth that it is, even if not stated directly in those terms as Gina and I often do.
Dr Joy Davidson PhD is revealing the myth by advising women to: “Make a dream threesome come true – safely — by visiting a strip club together and sharing a lap dance.” and “Get a complete Brazilian bikini wax just before a fun night out on the town. Wear a skirt, but skip the underwear.” and “Easton and Hardy’s The New Topping Book and The New Bottoming Book are erotic role-play must-haves” yadda sprinkling of evpsych yadda pornification is liberation ya.
Yes and of course, the 3-some is always with another woman, and the woman she suggests in this case, a lapdancer, is not someone with feelings to consider – she is a paid performer – doesn’t matter if she isn’t turned on or not, as long as she gets both of you off. Would hubby not be bothered if his wife or partner worked as a lapdancer? Would he mind his partner being groped by male after male? Many lapdancers are prostitutes – some aren’t but many are – many are desperately trying to make money to send home to eastern european families etc – is dr pornjoy bothered about this? Nah, just get your sad sex life (dictated by the man) spiced up by using another female body whose feelings or personas circumstances dont matter a toss. As long as the man gets what he wants from his women, that’s what counts, and one of the things he wants is for his partner to engage in a 3-some – oh girls – dr joy says it’s ok- it’s your choice – just do it – it’s all bullshit. Dr Joy start using some of that intelligence to fight this idea that female bodies are pornographic toilets for men, and start facing the fact that porn is manufacturing the “choice and consent” in women.
Here’s an option “no hubby, I don’t think I will go to the club to abuse another poverty-stricken woman’s body – maybe you should put your energy into the emotional side of our relationship”.
Again, playboy radio dr joy?? – all in the name of empowering females? You must think we are morons.
oh ffs! the bloody threesome thing again; the poverty of imagination is depressing.
SW – oh ffs! the bloody threesome thing again; the poverty of imagination is depressing.
LOL tell me about it…
obviously a threesome involving two men means they are both closet homosexuals; tut tut – and can’t happen in england. because we aren’t.
definitely not.
i’ll sue.
Call it bi and we’ll leave it at that sw…
What gets me is that there are thousands of women out there dreaming of threesomes with two men. Seriously. For eg- a lot of us are hella more interested in the sexual tension between Orlando Bloom and Johnny Depp than anything else in Pirates of the Caribbean (add in scruffy Norington and the net fan sites explode like WOAH!)
Who – mentioned Johnny Depp?
Mm mm
Depp and DDL?
Quick smelling salts for m’lady.
Seriously, and I think this is something to consider: I have read someone saying most women would not feel safe with two heterosexual men. Think about it.
Mmm… very good point Pony. Probably why those particular fantasy’s remain just that, or get transformed into badly written smut…
It’s hard enough to get one guy to respect a women’s boundaries and desires, never mind two in the same bedroom. V. v. sad.
Ahem. Saying no more.
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